ASB Movelist

[Oslo]

I definitely agree that certain moves should be Sketchable without a medium, but it's going to be hard to establish unanimity as to which moves would/would not require that medium. I mentioned this to DL and I think we're already starting to see it. Everyone would probably agree that Protect and Magic Coat, for example, shouldn't require a medium. With Aromatherapy, it's a little trickier. Personally, I think Aromatherapy should require a medium (ie. an incense burner, jar of potpourri, etc.), but I also sort of understand why you think it shouldn't.

I disagree that this nerf to Sketch renders Smeargle "little better" than a Pokemon with only Mimic/Me First, though. Smeargle still has every move in its arsenal, but those moves just can't be called upon directly. Unpredictability is absolutely still on Smeargle's side—more so, I'd say, than any other Pokemon. (You're also right to suggest that Smeargle is pretty useless if it's Taunted, but hey, so is a non-Imposter Ditto.)

[DarkestLight]

Any medium Smeargle Sketches is not used up. If you sketched a sword, you'd have the sword the whole match, unless it was robbed or broken.

First Action Taunt wouldn't stop Smeargle necessarily. If you are Taunted, Smeargle has access to moves like Struggle :/

If the move you draw doesn't have a medium, it still takes an action for the move to come into existance. Hence if you draw a Fireblast, it wold take an action before it flew off and scorched anyone, But if you did a sword, you could do any slashing move repeteadly. Any. Night Slash, Cut, Fury Swipes...yeah yer good.

[Oslo]

If the move you draw doesn't have a medium, it still takes an action for the move to come into existance. Hence if you draw a Fireblast, it wold take an action before it flew off and scorched anyone

So is what you told me the other day about Magic Coat or Safeguard coming into effect immediately upon being Sketched no longer valid?

[Ash0011]

also when sketching aromatherapy I was having my smeargle sketch a powder in the air or when sketching sheer cold I had it sketch ice around a pokemon, how about this, we leave the move up to the ref, they interpret whether the move should/shouldn't need a medium and whether or not the way we word it is good, if not that then can the mediums last until another is sketched so that smeargle can have more than 2 actions every turn

[Blademaster]

I've always had my Smeargle operate on cartoon physics of sorts. Was pretty funny way back when when my opponent was charging a Solarbeam or some other two-turn attack and I just Sketched a hole under their feet.

[Ash0011]

yeah but some refs *stares pointedly at oslo* only let smeargle use real moves
I really think that sketch should stay open to ref interpretation

[DarkestLight]

So is what you told me the other day about Magic Coat or Safeguard coming into effect immediately upon being Sketched no longer valid?

No. Its valid

*Confused face*

Ugh hate thinking. Ok.

Train of thinking when I said that: "If you draw something around yourself, it should be able to happen instantly, since its not a move that requires aiming."

Days later" Well now wait. All moves need energy to be created into the world. That's why Smeargle only knows Sketch, it runs the risk of being hampered if it dosen't already have moves to Sketch. Sketch allows the Smeargle to remember the move-then its available for use. Hence, all moves need that action."

Shift to today. Let's use Flamethrower.
I would say if someone used Smeargle and drew a actual Flamethrower, then Smeargle could use Flamethrower all damn day until fuel ran out or something.

Having Smeargle draw actual flames to be thrown would still take an action, because he's not drawing the fire as we know it, he's drawing the outline of the fire, and then it comes into existence.

As for the cartoon physics, that makes the most sense to me. You draw a hole under someone, yer just gonna see the line. You aren't going to know its a hole. Then it appears and you fall in it.

Now-for self helping attacks. If you draw any shield around yourself, it would take an action. I was thinking immediately since certain attacks would be used in response to an action. (Counter, Mirror Coat, etc..) Damn. This pokemon is making us have a crapton of foresight to use like, 4 attacks.

Ok so. How about...

1) Smeargle draws a medium-attacks can be used via medium until medium is broken.

2) Direct response attacks (Counter, Mirror Coat, Metal Burst, Bide) aren't actually Sketchable. If these attacks need to be used, they can be sketched and used instan--wait no. Cause then you could Counter/Mirror Coat all day. Lame. Yeah, gonna have to use foresight if using those moves. You don't necessarily have to have a medium for these types of moves, but it would still take an action.

3) Stat boosts:Things like Safeguard would need to be sketched -and they would fade away in time. Consumable mediums, or even just the energy in question since the move does have a time alottment.

Whew, yeah. Any more input into Sketch?

[Ash0011]

so basically sketch is the same except now the counter spam is nerfed and mediums are infinite, oh and cartoon physics are official, seems good to me

[Oslo]

*reads DL's post like nine times*

Er, I don't like the cartoon physics thing. What's stopping a Smeargle user from constantly Sketching their opponent into ridiculously deep holes that can't be climbed out? Or painting them into cages? Or sealed tanks of water? Or dropping dump truck-sized anvils on them? Or painting walls that function like Protect but, since they're not Protect, could be feasibly used again and again in succession?

That on top of being able to Sketch any of their opponent's moves directly AND being able to draw any medium that can use any move = brrrroken. More broken than before this conversation?

Also, I think the Movelist entry for Sketch should be edited to include (among like fifty other things) a proviso about what makes for an acceptable medium. To use recent examples I've encountered, Ash trying to Sketch a rainbow-coloured orb that could call upon any move and battle gloves jewelled with all the elements.

[Ash0011]

hey the orb was 1 use and the gloves would only allow me to use moves that require hands so they were technically balanced
anyways I've been making a new design for a sketch weapon for me to be revealed when I have enough points to look for a legend, either regigigas or darker depends
also sketch was probably just simpler before can we just make it to where we put the old rules for sketch up and add something about ref's interpretation

[DarkestLight]

*reads DL's post like nine times*

Er, I don't like the cartoon physics thing. What's stopping a Smeargle user from constantly Sketching their opponent into ridiculously deep holes that can't be climbed out? Or painting them into cages? Or sealed tanks of water? Or dropping dump truck-sized anvils on them? Or painting walls that function like Protect but, since they're not Protect, could be feasibly used again and again in succession?

Ref interpretation. I'm pretty sure that
1) Deep holes have no precedence when it comes to Dig, since if the Pokemon could not dig themselves out, then adversely, they could not be attacked by the other Pokemon effectively.

2) Painting them in cages is legal. Cages have gaps in them. Cages can be broken. You said cage. not "Steel and cement laden box of no air=death"

3) Sealed tanks of water=Teleport into Ocean depths. Been done before LOL.

4) Dump Truck sized anvils. The action it takes for the object to form, they can step away, barring any extreme circumstance. Free Agility..

5) Walls. Protect would still follow the same criteria, but those walls would break down, and be ineffective.

Baically, Im sayting that ref interpretation of how the move can be correlated to a Pokemon Move is necessary of how its sketched.


Also, I think the Movelist entry for Sketch should be edited to include (among like fifty other things) a proviso about what makes for an acceptable medium. To use recent examples I've encountered, Ash trying to Sketch a rainbow-coloured orb that could call upon any move and battle gloves jewelled with all the elements.[/quote]

o.O LOL @ infinity Gauntly reference.

[Blademaster]

Funny enough, as broken as Smeargle apparently is, my Smeargle have never won a battle because of the simple fact that Sketch taking up an action always ensures that they have at least one less active attack than the opponent. The more Sketching that is done, the more free hits the opponent gets in. It seems fair to me, maybe even a bit unfair towards the side using Smeargle.

[Ash0011]

hmmm yeah I've won battles with smeargle but it'll be way too hard under these rules, I think sketch should stay the way it was, aka ref's interpretation

[Oslo]

Funny enough, as broken as Smeargle apparently is, my Smeargle have never won a battle because of the simple fact that Sketch taking up an action always ensures that they have at least one less active attack than the opponent. The more Sketching that is done, the more free hits the opponent gets in. It seems fair to me, maybe even a bit unfair towards the side using Smeargle.

But you have to weigh that against the fact that Smeargle (indirectly) gets access to every move. It can even gain access to moves with obscenely high damage outputs like V-create. That kind of movepool more than makes up for the fact that Sketch takes up an action.

[Ash0011]

and those moves usually have drawbacks and a high energy cost

[DarkestLight]

You have to use Sketch like you use any non attacking move. All of those moves are free hit moves if used all willy nilly. You will get hit once at the beginning, but you should be able to make it up when you use your sketched items. It takes more foresight than you've been used to Ash, and that's where the problem lies.

Blade, You speak lies.

[Blademaster]

Oh God, that brings back memories...

Thanks for the nostalgia.

[Ash0011]

so basically I just have to make an episketch* during the first move, then I get to use it throughout the time... the episketch being Chuck Norris O_O I like this, also does mew get all the moves or just tm/hm moves?
*an epic sketch, like a shield with a gem of each element inlaid around the edges, a gauntlet that can collect move types, or a creeper spawner

[Blademaster]

You're overestimating your abilities. No enemy would allow you to Sketch such an unfair object without having a sub to counter it, and moreover, no ref would allow such a thing. Smeargle can certainly Sketch, say, a shield or an elemental crystal straight out of Final Fantasy, but something as complex and abstract as an Infinity Gauntlet or an absorb-everything shield would never fly.

[Mew Master]

Blade speaks the Truth: Smeargle's Sketch is a decent move and takes some unorthodox thinking to work around the various limitations, but you can't make an Ultimate Nullifier in any match. Or an Ice Shield with a self-destruct that you claim it has after the round it was snatched when it's made of ice. Or even a colossi of fire to beat your enemy into submission... I'd try it, but I already know it'd get Ref-Hammered through to Jupiter.

Also, Mew currently isn't allowed in ASB because of it's massive move-list *grumblesf-ckinWiggalytuffandnowSmearglewithasmanyormoremoves thanMew*[/rant]

[RaZoR LeAf]

What if there was a list of items that could be sketched and the moves that item would permit the Smeargle to use? For example:

A hat with horns on - Horn Attack, Horn Drill, Megahorn, Fury Attack
A sword - Swords Dance, Secret Sword, Sacred Sword, Slash, etc.

So if anyone was using a Smeargle and needed examples of what to sketch to get a particular move, they could take form the list, or just use it as inspiration.

[Greyfox]

Ultimately, it's up to ref discretion, but I honestly think you can sketch anything you want, but that thing has to adhere to the rules of the pokemon universe.

So, sure, you could sketch, say, Mjolnir (Thor's hammer), but it's only really going to be just a pretty-looking hammer. It's not gonna be overly powerful or anything like that.

[Ash0011]

I suppose I'm not allowed to sketch the omnotrix either? sigh guess I'll stick with my bottomless sack
btw what's an infinity gauntlet anyways

[Greyfox]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinity_Gauntlet

[Cynder]

Ultimately, it's up to ref discretion, but I honestly think you can sketch anything you want, but that thing has to adhere to the rules of the pokemon universe.

So, sure, you could sketch, say, Mjolnir (Thor's hammer), but it's only really going to be just a pretty-looking hammer. It's not gonna be overly powerful or anything like that.

...I'm tempted to catch a Smeargle at some point for that exact reason... An Avengers knockoff Smeargle would be the best thing ever xD

The hammer wouldn't be that useless though, it could summon thunder and use most of the bludgeoning-type moves with ease I should think.

[Greyfox]

...I'm tempted to catch a Smeargle at some point for that exact reason... An Avengers knockoff Smeargle would be the best thing ever xD

The hammer wouldn't be that useless though, it could summon thunder and use most of the bludgeoning-type moves with ease I should think.

Why stop there? Why not go full-on League of Extraordinary Gentlemen on it and have Smeargle sketch *all* the Avengers' gifts?

[EraGam]

Hey there, just wondering, can we use the new BW2 movesets?

[ChobiChibi]

I'm guessing not until the games come out in English...

[BTPoke]

Well, I'm guess it might be a little while even AFTER the english versions come out,

Considering there are some people who don't want any spoilers whatsoever
(even though the movesets wouldn't technically be spoilers).

[ChobiChibi]

And considering its probably coming out slightly later in th UK/EU... Not sure, haven't checked.

[Perfect Chaos]

Hey could a ref give me a ruling for Outrage please? According to what is written on the first page, it makes it sound like it can be used on a turn-based accordance and doesn't force the user to use it for 2-3 turns continuous. Is it supposed to work like that or can you just use once and then use a different move on your next action/turn?

[Greyfox]

It can be used once without being locked in, however repeated usages may incur confusion.

As soon as BW2 are released in English, then the new movesets will be usable.

[Perfect Chaos]

So does this same ruling apply for other similar moves that take up multiple turns to damage (ex. Thrash, Wrap, Whirlpool, Fire Spin, etc.)

[DarkestLight]

Yes. You can continually use the move (ex-Use Rollout one or use Rollout the whole round) but any and all side effects of any multi-turn move will occur most likely after the first usage.

[RaZoR LeAf]

In regards to Double Team, it's almost common practice now that if the original pokemon is hit, then all the clones vanish. Does this not seem a little unfair, given that DT is a stat booster for Evasion. If you manage to use Double Team six times, one lucky hit puts waste to your +6 evasion. Whereas there is no such instant dampener for any other stat. You can't instantly cure -6 accuracy by hitting a target, or knock down a +6 attack by defending really well.

My point is, should clones vanish at all? They're meant to be illusions, as oppose to a physical presence. Them being hit by an attack, or even exposed to falling rain shouldn't matter if they are just shapes made of light.

[DarkestLight]

I see your reasoning.

I raise you specific counters. For the evasion factor in rain/hail/snow, if the shapes of light are made out to be not solid (ie you can see sand go through them, but not of the actual one) that already reduces your evasion prowess to zero.

As for the one hit and they go poof. The amount of times it takes for that one hit to occur may take all six tries. Yeah, it sucks if it is the first go around, but Double Team also does not raise your evasion by one like the games in ASB. A random number of clones appear and its from those clones that your "evasion stat" is increased.

You may only yield 2 clones, or you may yield 8 (after multiple times, yeah)

But, I'm interested in hearing more about this. It does seem silly to nullify the Double Team clones entirely, but Haze does that with no problem, why can't other weather conditions? It just doesn't seem right that after hitting the real one, you would hit the fake one again.

Anyone else wish to chime in though. We're open to interpretation of this. DT could be in use of a remodel for ASB mechanics.

(and Haze/Clear Smog laffs at your instant dampener comment)

[Blademaster]

This is ANIME Style Battling.

In the anime, Double Team is negated by a single slap. Has been since the first season.

Sorry, but evasion doesn't tend to last long anyway. Almost every evasion-raising move is speed-based, and one god hit makes fast thing stop going fast. Newton's kind of a dick like that. :/

[Oslo]

(and Haze/Clear Smog laffs at your instant dampener comment)

Very true. Skill Swap Power/Guard Swap (alol) is another move that can negate an opponent's +6 boost... and then give it to you instead! So the idea that a Double Team x6 can be wiped out with a single attack is reasonable. Double Team just isn't the kind of move you use six times consecutively; it's the kind of move you use only once at the beginning of a round when you're issuing commands after your opponent. I think the current mechanic is fine.

[RaZoR LeAf]

This is ANIME Style Battling.

In the anime, Double Team is negated by a single slap. Has been since the first season.

Sorry, but evasion doesn't tend to last long anyway. Almost every evasion-raising move is speed-based, and one god hit makes fast thing stop going fast. Newton's kind of a dick like that. :/

There's only two moves that exclusively raise evasion anyway. Double Team and Minimize. And whilst this is ANIME style battling, we can't keep using that as a reason, lest we allow AIM FOR THE HORN style ground beating electric attacks to be acceptable.

I see your reasoning.

I raise you specific counters. For the evasion factor in rain/hail/snow, if the shapes of light are made out to be not solid (ie you can see sand go through them, but not of the actual one) that already reduces your evasion prowess to zero.

Yeah I figured that after I wrote it.

As for the one hit and they go poof. The amount of times it takes for that one hit to occur may take all six tries. Yeah, it sucks if it is the first go around, but Double Team also does not raise your evasion by one like the games in ASB. A random number of clones appear and its from those clones that your "evasion stat" is increased.

You may only yield 2 clones, or you may yield 8 (after multiple times, yeah)

Maybe it's worth stating just how many clones are made per use of the move, rather than letting it be the ref's decision. Sometimes it'll be 1 clone, other times, you'll get five clones. It jumps from a 1/2 chance of hitting the target to a 1/6 chance, which will then drop to 1/5, 1/4, etc. which are greatly varying odds.

But, I'm interested in hearing more about this. It does seem silly to nullify the Double Team clones entirely, but Haze does that with no problem, why can't other weather conditions? It just doesn't seem right that after hitting the real one, you would hit the fake one again.

The only way I can see it working is if the clones are like a 'live-update'. So they look exactly like the pokemon when they are made. If the original gets hit, and (for instance) burnt, then all the clones immediately show the same damage too. That way, they are still identical copies and no one pokemon has been given an identifying feature.

Anyone else wish to chime in though. We're open to interpretation of this. DT could be in use of a remodel for ASB mechanics.

(and Haze/Clear Smog laffs at your instant dampener comment)

I meant aside from those. Clear Smog and haze will do that to all stats, but you can loose all your clones just by getting hit once. You don't loose all your attack by getting hit once.

[Rossymore]

The thing with accuracy and evasion based moves is that they're all luck based. In the games, they start out at 100% and change up or down depending on moves and determine how often the move hits, using the base accuracy of a move. It all relies on luck.

Double Team is an interesting move due to how, at least the way I ref it, it creates four clones. The opposing Pokemon now has a one in five chance of hitting the real one. If not, then it's a one in four chance. Repeated use of Double Team will cap it at four clones, don't want people getting too trigger happy. It does mean, however, that a potential of four moves will miss because of the move, or none and you just wasted an action and 10 energy.

Therefore, I think it's perfectly justified that the clones vanish as it can be frustrating to miss four moves and could easily turn the tide of battle, as once you get ahead in an ASB match, you will often continue to stay ahead.